Near Future Marines

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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby bvandewalker » 24 May 2015, 21:05

1classybadger wrote:hanging around the FOB is most of what happens, but the airforce tends to cause a lot of collateral, so most combat operations are raids to occupied buildings in densely populated areas.


Thought so. :lol:

As to collateral, I remember thinking during the early part of the Iraq war that the US army kept using bomb droppers to do a snipers job, and they haven't really changed that approach (if anything they have "improved" upon it with drones). :twisted:
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby 1classybadger » 25 May 2015, 00:38

what I learned from a Lt. Col. in the air force in refrence to the PBI's role in modern warfare. was to take and hold the stuff we can't bomb, and let us know what we can.

going back to the look:

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a mix of these, a fully closed version, and an open face version.

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another good comprimise, no?
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby 1classybadger » 19 Jun 2015, 21:09

you know I was going to embed a bunch of GIFs of robots failing at the DARPA challenge, but here, heres an album of 20 of them, http://imgur.com/gallery/q2W0N me thinks we are a few years off from murderbots

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but valkryie is a classy looking dame

http://i.imgur.com/TO4znyH.gifv
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby bvandewalker » 19 Jun 2015, 23:02

1classybadger wrote:you know I was going to embed a bunch of GIFs of robots failing at the DARPA challenge, but here, heres an album of 20 of them, http://imgur.com/gallery/q2W0N me thinks we are a few years off from murderbots


We already have murder bots badger, they are remote controlled and use treads and wings, all of which work a whole lot better than AI and legs (which is why all the bot you showed are sucky failures, they where all inferior legged machines with poorly programed decision making processes, both of which are also good reasons to take troops off the battlefield :twisted: ). Stop trying to justify "realistic" spacemen marines and get over the fact human troops are obsolete.:P
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby 1classybadger » 20 Jun 2015, 01:34

walker, robo soldiers are just as ludicrous, our current gen of murder bots are actually not autonomus, merely remote operated, and they will stay that way for a long time to come. simply put, most western militaries don't trust machines to do our killing for us. (its DoD protocol that only unarmed and non combat machines may be able to operate with out a human operator.) the idea of drone troops is cool, but is plauged with problems that nesscitate human feet in those boots on the ground. one reason why remote operated doesn't take over, is operaters are far more expensive to train and yet suffer the same rates of stress as grunts, and develop long term disorders shortening their careers. secondly there is a disconect from the actual situation on the ground that a trooper is going to grasp over the operator. thirdly, as you pointed out a human face can quell the unrest amongst the civilians in the area by showing that we aren't the faceless opressers. finally that intel on where to put those drones has to come from somewhere, so, we are always going to need the Mk. 1 eyeball.
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby bvandewalker » 20 Jun 2015, 02:54

1classybadger wrote:walker, robo soldiers are just as ludicrous, our current gen of murder bots are actually not autonomus, merely remote operated, and they will stay that way for a long time to come. simply put, most western militaries don't trust machines to do our killing for us. (its DoD protocol that only unarmed and non combat machines may be able to operate with out a human operator.) the idea of drone troops is cool, but is plauged with problems that nesscitate human feet in those boots on the ground. one reason why remote operated doesn't take over, is operaters are far more expensive to train and yet suffer the same rates of stress as grunts, and develop long term disorders shortening their careers. secondly there is a disconect from the actual situation on the ground that a trooper is going to grasp over the operator. thirdly, as you pointed out a human face can quell the unrest amongst the civilians in the area by showing that we aren't the faceless opressers. finally that intel on where to put those drones has to come from somewhere, so, we are always going to need the Mk. 1 eyeball.


Trust them or not, if I where a commander and I had the chose of either sending in RC cars with guns mounted on them or troops wearing the armor facemasks you keep suggesting, than it would be the RC cars every time because at that point I am the faceless oppressor (no buts about it, the goody two shoe tactical advantage is lost with cobra viper helms) and an RC car is more expandable since you don't have to write a condolence letter to its family or deal with a media spun guilt trip when it gets blown up.

Basically if you are going to be evil be Dr. Doom not Ming the merciless, send in robots even if you do have to forcibly recruit teenagers to pilot them remotely (I never said we should send AIs in :twisted: ), if robot blows up you still have the pilot and if said pilot suffers PTSD or stress it can be taken care of here at home more easily than the stress/PTSD of a soldier on the battle field where it can cost a whole fire team.

As to eyes on the ground, I will take your Mk. 1 eye ball and raise you a "God's Eye" :twisted: .

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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby 1classybadger » 20 Jun 2015, 10:50

but we do not have gods eye, sattilite reconnasince is very very good, yes, but it can only tell us so much, and can not see into buildings.

now, humans have one final advantage, they can't be subverted by a teen in a cafe with a laptop. there have been repeated instances of drones being taken control of, albieit temporarily and unable to utilize their payloads due to an improper control set up (preadators don't use the WASD set up it would seem). we will never replace every soldier with an RC car with a gun, because frankly thats a bad idea. all the enemy has to do, is go to anywhere with rapid shifts in elevation that would make it impossible for the car to go, and there they can sit and laugh and plan.

as for the mask, you don't use those one patrols, you use them on raids, when you want to instill the fear of god in your target.
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby bvandewalker » 21 Jun 2015, 03:02

1classybadger wrote:but we do not have gods eye, sattilite reconnasince is very very good, yes, but it can only tell us so much, and can not see into buildings.


We already have the hard part, a connected world with cameras everywhere, and both hacking and face recognition programs exist, it would probably be very easy to make God's Eye real (and very illegal :twisted: ), but there are other things (like a room full of hackers, spys in google, or a room full analysts reading blogs from that part of the world) that are just as effective that we can do now that don't involve placing humans in hot zones just to grab info.

1classybadger wrote:now, humans have one final advantage, they can't be subverted by a teen in a cafe with a laptop. there have been repeated instances of drones being taken control of, albieit temporarily and unable to utilize their payloads due to an improper control set up (preadators don't use the WASD set up it would seem). we will never replace every soldier with an RC car with a gun, because frankly thats a bad idea. all the enemy has to do, is go to anywhere with rapid shifts in elevation that would make it impossible for the car to go, and there they can sit and laugh and plan.


Humans are actually easier to subvert (without the need of laptops), all that takes is the right words or actions and you can do anything from distracting them for a moment to making them betray their own country (it can be argued that the real reason we lost Vietnam was subversion of the masses by media), quit frankly the war we are currently in is all about human subversion. At least Drones have updatable firewalls and if we switched to Ternary instead of Binary for strictly army computers they might be unhackable (or at least out of reach for laptop owning terrorists and teens).

As to buildings, tread drones can probably be made to take stairs, but you can also do this:

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1classybadger wrote:as for the mask, you don't use those one patrols, you use them on raids, when you want to instill the fear of god in your target.


In that case, the only reason to have boots on the ground is for the friendly neighborhood patrols and FOB guards.

A flock of the above gun armed quid copters drones plus some rocket armed tread bots and few kamikaze bomb quid copters drones would put the fear of god into me a lot more if I saw that coming over the hill to kill me gun toting buds for the simple reason that they don't have to retreat when they suffer casualties, probably won't, and be calling for more of their friends to join in once they have lost 50% of their fighting power. :twisted:

Also you can't just strip a downed Drone of its weapons and reuse it immediately like you can with soldiers, you would really have to know what you are doing get anything beyond ammo out of it once the fighting stops (if it stops :shock: ) whereas a fresh US army or marine corpse is like a treasure chest full of goodies: body armor, new shoes, guns, rations, ammo, helmet, sunglasses, combat knife, personal effects, etc. (basically what ever he had on him that didn't get damaged in the fighting).
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby 1classybadger » 21 Jun 2015, 11:12

Also you can't just strip a downed Drone of its weapons and reuse it immediately like you can with soldiers, you would really have to know what you are doing get anything beyond ammo out of it once the fighting stops (if it stops :shock: ) whereas a fresh US army or marine corpse is like a treasure chest full of goodies: body armor, new shoes, guns, rations, ammo, helmet, sunglasses, combat knife, personal effects, etc. (basically what ever he had on him that didn't get damaged in the fighting).


except that has yet to happen in our current wars, it happened once in WW2 with one squad of germans. its also why we have signs and counter signs, just because they wear the uniform doesn't mean they'll look anything like private timmy from alabama. now as to looting weapons. Ignoring the fact that when one of ours falls, they are usually recovered within miniutes.

now, this is veering into uncivil territory, this is a thread for future marines, not drones so we should keep the discussion to the assumption that we will still use some boots on the ground. now I agree, small quad copters will see more use as a squad suppourt asset
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Re: Near Future Marines

Postby bvandewalker » 23 Jun 2015, 03:16

1classybadger wrote:
Also you can't just strip a downed Drone of its weapons and reuse it immediately like you can with soldiers, you would really have to know what you are doing get anything beyond ammo out of it once the fighting stops (if it stops :shock: ) whereas a fresh US army or marine corpse is like a treasure chest full of goodies: body armor, new shoes, guns, rations, ammo, helmet, sunglasses, combat knife, personal effects, etc. (basically what ever he had on him that didn't get damaged in the fighting).


except that has yet to happen in our current wars, it happened once in WW2 with one squad of germans. its also why we have signs and counter signs, just because they wear the uniform doesn't mean they'll look anything like private timmy from alabama. now as to looting weapons. Ignoring the fact that when one of ours falls, they are usually recovered within miniutes.


I think you are missing the point, I am not saying that they will try to enter the base in private Tim's uniform (I know about the modern protocols, besides everyone knows that only works movies :roll: ), what I am saying is that human soldiers carry a lot of salvageable gear and it getting into enemy hands has actually happened since some of our guys have been held hostage since going to Afghanistan, (I doubt they got caught/surrendered naked) and in recent history even our own troops have looted gear (from captive and corpse), looting is just one of those things. ;)

Granted we are really good at picking up our fallen and getting our boys out of tough spots, but we aren't prefect and it only takes seconds (at most) to grab fallen guns off the ground and high tail it.

1classybadger wrote:now, this is veering into uncivil territory, this is a thread for future marines, not drones so we should keep the discussion to the assumption that we will still use some boots on the ground. now I agree, small quad copters will see more use as a squad suppourt asset



(sigh) I am sorry that you feel I am being uncivil about this, you see I have actually had "Drones vs. Humans troops in actual real life combat" conversations before with my Dad and I was arguing your position back then, and I found out (for the western American mindset at least) there really isn't a good "real life" reason for sending in a irreplaceable human being when you can send in an expendable box. So the writing is pretty clear on that wall: armed troops will be completely fazed out for the US from frontline warfare and combat ops in at least the next 10-15 years at the most and since they are already being slowly fazed out probably much sooner (depending on wither or not we can still afford to upgrade our forces, if we can't upgrade I expect the US marines to look how they do now more or less).

that said my basic assumption is that this is either a "within that time frame" set or "believable near future Sci-Fi Fantasy" both of which translate to this over all:

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with maybe some thing exactly like this in addition :

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but anything beyond that is high fantasy SF like mass effect, and I highly doubt we will ever switch to oddly shaped camera eye replacement helmets like these:

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Perhaps the drones should be a separate box and we give the marines a recon quad copter. :idea:
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