Additions to your fantasy line

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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 16 Sep 2015, 00:11

Warning: I wrote a seven page response to you guys so I am doing them in few posts. Read my comments carefully.

1classybadger wrote:the issue was resolved when all parties aggreed that the inclusion of crossbows for the dwarven and human missle troops would be useful


Yeah, we did and I do agree with the principle since there are a lot of people who don’t like gunpowder in their fantasy (even though I think having gunpowder weapons in fantasy rocks and is a tad more believable since we have had guns since the dark ages at least, just saying :roll: ) although I still don’t really think the human streltsy need crossbows since one should be able to do them up as great axe troops for the non-gunpowder option, so if we (and given how WGF is right now, I do mean we) have to choose between the axes or crossbows for them I think we should stick with the pics and do axes.

However the Cossacks should have some Crossbows. We should also give our armored foot boyars at least one bow and the boyar cavalry really needs a bow option for most of the riders (which should make even the most ardent “fantasy should be gunpowder free” advocates happy). :D

Rastagnon wrote:New here, trying to read this thread up to date but at page 48 I have to respond. Pardon me if this point was brought up in the last 24 pages I haven't read yet. I too prefer no black powder weapons in my fantasy... But if your doing axe muskets, the axe head has to be the stock end up against the shoulder, perhaps curving to rest atop it whil being set. This requires a grip shift for melee... But muskets with bayonets also do for best effect. An axe head out away from the body on a musket is not a recipe for accuracy and endurance... Not even for my beloved doughty dwarven devastators.


I believe it was, but making it a bayonet axe heads was the agreed upon for the dwarf firearms because it looks cooler than just a gun (I believe my exact argument was “All the cool Chaos dwarf minis out there had them, why not have them for our Norse themed dwarves”) and it was easier to defend than what you suggest.
The axe head as a bayonet is not an unrealistic design since putting the axe head up front was the more popular way to do it back in real history (people tend to want all the killing bits in front so they don’t have accidents ;) ), and you must remember these are dwarves in a magical fantasy setting we are talking about, they would probably enchant their gun axes so that they are as light as feather, neigh unbreakable, and rust proof to boot (just like they do for all the rest of their weapons and armor :lol: ).

But since it bothers you we could give the dwarf sprue a pavise to steady the Axe guns and crossbows if it doesn’t take up too much space (something like the ones Sergey is planning on doing only more Norse). ;)

Rastagnon wrote:I like a set of were folk, particularly 3-5 rats included in the mix with the rashaka/cat/lion kitsume wolf/hyena. And bear. Actually I'd be good with a were rat set. Based on the ragio(sp?) Tesso. Myth from Japan. monk turned himself into a giant human sized rat with black magic.... Claws/fangs of iron with a body of stone..... While that could be taken literally as a golem... Or magically hardened flesh.... Just as easy to consider it weapons and armor. Well done models find their way into GW armies, pole arm elites, clan members, or slaves? and I would use them in mice and Mystics... Modular shield, helm and weapons allows customization into many cross cultural settings.


Rat Goblins (the translation for the yokai you are talking about I believe, I think they are normally called neizumi in the Japanese, but not sure) would be an awesome set, I think that there are still enough people interested in skavern (yes they should be skavern like, except Japanese and maybe a little cleaner for L5R roleplayers) even though Warhammer fantasy is now unsupported thanks to AOS. :cry: :lol:

The monk rat (yes I have heard that story too) with body like stone seems more like a Character sculpt to me and by that I mean like one of those metal figures you get because it is a canon character (iconic to a certain universe as opposed to generic fit in anywhere sculpt) , not something you put in a 20-30 plastic figure set normally, although if we did a box of random smaller, about goblin sized, yokai (and I am not talking about a set of rat goblins or even just heng (Japanese shapshifters), I mean the works) it would fit right in. 8-)

As to kitsune, Bakeneko (Japanese fox and cat changelings respectively) and most other heng (not all of them, but at least fox and cat heng and any Asian counterparts such as the Korean and Chinese fox monsters), we all more or less agreed that they should be humans with animal ears and tails instead of animal headed people because: it looks better sculpted (fox heads in particular look odd on human bodies in 28mm), Fluff wise it makes them seem more in control of their shapeshifting since it isn’t an uncontrolled curse for them, myth wise it make more since (would you let yourself get seduced to your doom by a fox or cat faced female? would you even be tempted? say no :roll: ), plus it gives us a better excuse to do their animal forms (the small four legged verity) which would be cool from a gaming perspective. :D

For the more cursed person style werecritter (wolves, bears, and maybe badgers) we were all thinking (at least I was) of doing them as snarling ripped shirt horror movie beasties for the most part (the badgers are going to be a head and arms swap for the dwarf berserker on the unarmored dwarf sprue, so I don’t know how beastly as opposed to furry we can make it but it is worth a try), if we do them at all.

I am not really sure what the consensus was on rashaka (I forgot) since they actually look intimidating as people with tiger heads :o (like they are supposed to be in the myths :shock: ), so it is either like that or like the cursed werepeople as mentioned above.

However if you really want to have animal headed people, than that was one of the proposed head swap sprues we talked about earlier (sprues which I think may be the most viable for trying KS first :arrow: ).
Last edited by bvandewalker on 16 Sep 2015, 01:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 16 Sep 2015, 00:24

Rastagnon wrote:Was a lot of talk about character sets.... Focus on what makes your armies like skeletons so great... Aboundant modular components allowing wide range of customization. An Arthurian knights or Crusader or other heavily armored nobility set to cover human knights, Paladins, and clerics if used as fantasy characters. Foot and mounted leg sets... Horses sold separately. Holy symbol sprue cast separately. (Stretch un lock).. Install before head.

set 2, scouts, these characters become Rangers, rogues, and Druids? ... Haven't checked out the celts closely enough... Leather armor primarily with breaches. (Cloaks possibly, No robes this is war/adventuring, not religious ritual). At this level paint schemes and weapon options dictate class designation in character mode... Leaves in one hand with sickle in other... Probably a Druid.

Set three... No armor.... Ritual Mystics. Wizards Druids unarmored clerics, sho-Lin monks. Holy symbols ritual vestments, spell books or karate posed limbs to break out base torsos to different professions. Yes Druids twice based on armor.

All sets could have extra legs for mounted version .... If torsos are not duplicated this leads to character sales being two boxes to match the figure for mounted and unMounted versions.

Set four female torsos ... Same 2x legs, extra female arm positions. Smaller selection of bodies from all three types for same total. Sampling of optional equipment... Compatible with extras to flesh out variety. Lots of extra heads so male models can be converted for those gamers less pick about décolletage.
Set 5 elf variant like female set... Slighter bodies more mystical armor and robes... Lots of extra heads for conversion of female bodies for she elves, and male bodies to half elves possibly.


I actually proposed a similar multi kit set up to yours (you forgot the dwarf adventurers by the way) back when the fantasy thread was all “adventurers needs to be this way so that it has all the fun stuff” “no, they have to be this way because there is no way to fit all that on one sprue”, I think I may even proposed that set up in couple of different ways that all more or less went over like a lead balloon filled with hydrogen. :lol:

In fact I think that was how most, if not all of the adventurer set proposals went actually (the crash and burn part that is). We all couldn’t agree on anything for the adventurers really (except that fantasy ladies needed more clothing than bikinis) and everyone kept changing their minds on what they wanted or worse kept adding more things, sometimes even copy righted characters that had already been done twice in miniature. ;)

The problems with the RPG Characters/Adventurer set proposal are these: there are too many unique adventurer classes and races for just one set (just for D&D it was to many even with the “lets represent this race with just a head swap”, you just can’t do that with dwarves), too many generic fantasy settings for one set (yes that was part of the problem), there is no reason to buy 2 boxes of rituals mystics/mages (from a manufacturing/cost point of view that is good reason not to do them in plastic sets), you may as well do army unit sets if you are planning to do multiple sets, and at this point in time it is cheaper to just buy the adventurer minis you need (Reaper bones or ebay). :|

Basically it went nowhere, had too many cooks using incompatible recipes, had lots of issues, and it became a tedious subject after a while (I at least got tired of it). :roll:


The most feasible compromise for the adventurer proposal probably is the Frostgrave soldier set that is already out there on the market. That set has most of the basic non-magic user equipment the forum thought adventurers should have (bows, crossbow, various hand weapons, 2 two handed weapons, shields, bags, ropes, packs, and pouches).

If WGF is still thinking about doing an Adventurer set, I think it might be more cost effective and faster for them to just alter the Germanic tribesmen sets into a dark age/barbarian style male human adventurer/henchmen sets if they are going to just discontinued them anyway.

For our own KS plans (the boyars, Korean elves, Greek monsters etc) I think over all we should avoid character/adventurer sets (at least for a first KS) and stick to the mass fantasy combat game army and/or head swap sprues approach we have been talking about for the last several pages since we actually made positive head way on those proposals (IE we had 2 or more people agree on those). ;)
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 16 Sep 2015, 00:37

Rastagnon wrote:Was a lot of talk about character sets.... Focus on what makes your armies like skeletons so great... Aboundant modular components allowing wide range of customization. An Arthurian knights or Crusader or other heavily armored nobility set to cover human knights, Paladins, and clerics if used as fantasy characters. Foot and mounted leg sets... Horses sold separately. Holy symbol sprue cast separately. (Stretch un lock).. Install before head.


We decided to do a Russian theme for our main human faction instead of the typical western European theme (because western Europe has been done a lot for fantasy and the west would be better served in historical sets at this point, even for Arthurians :lol: ) so we are planning on doing boyars (these guys):

Image

The boyars will be done as a mix of different Russian style armor type bodies (Chain, scale, plate, and lamellar) with mixed and match parts for greater customization (arms, legs, bodies, and heads are all separate). There will be two sets for the boyars: cavalry and infantry.

For the unarmored troops options we will have, as mentioned, streltsy and Cossack. I think we will do something like a Russian Orthodox priest (since we were thinking of making the sets dual usable for history gaming) and some sort of mage, weather they are done as command sprue options or we just do them as metals should be the real debate considering. :arrow:

Rastagnon wrote: Set 5 elf variant like female set... Slighter bodies more mystical armor and robes... Lots of extra heads for conversion of female bodies for she elves, and male bodies to half elves possibly.


Since we basically decided to walk away from the adventurers talk wise, the elves we have talked about doing are a faction (meaning there will be multiple sets of them at some point). We have (after a long battle of wills) agreed to making the elves Korean in dress, head gear, and armament (Joseon period mostly with maybe a touch of the older periods thrown in) which will look fairly mystical to western eyes.

Body build and facial structure wise we plan on them having either anime or better yet Manhwa (Korean comic book) proportions/ facial features that will actually look different from the humans but be attractive while also keeping them from becoming too different for good kit bashing with non elf true 28mm scale humans as opposed to the more common “love it or hate it” builds that seem plague elf sculpts intent on looking slender or alien (both are very vague discerptions which do not necessarily make good sculpts and, as much as love them, mantic elves can’t bash pretty :lol: ).

For heads with brimmed hats and helmets the ears are going to point more outwards as opposed upwards to keep hat alteration to a minimal and make the elves truly different from the rest on the market, this is how most of the rest of the heads will be too but we will have a few bare and brimless hated heads with ears that are point bit upwards but no cat ears (elves are not felines). :lol:

We are also going to give half the heads horns to represent dark elves to make them unique (yes there will be hat alteration for that), I was thinking a signal horn coming either out of the forehead or crown for each dark elf, but other people wanted 2 horns on at least some of the heads for other reasons, I think I may be alone on the unihorned dark elves. :cry: ;)

Since one of the longest arguments about the elves came in the form of head gear, I pointed out that it might be smarter to just do the Korean head gear for the actual sets and do an elf head swap sprue with more fit on true 28mm scale bodies anime facial feature elf head options than you can shake a stick at. Everyone liked the idea since we did not have to compromise as much, and even if you don’t like the Korean outfits of our elf sets, you can still build that elf army you wanted too since most fantasy wargame model sets out there are heroic scale, so an army of more true 28mm scale human bodies (from historical sets) with the reasonably proportioned elf heads from the proposed sprue would still look slender and elvish by comparison. It is one of the better ideas we have come up with on the forum and I think should be the first kickstarter we do (to get our feet wet).
Last edited by bvandewalker on 29 Sep 2015, 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 16 Sep 2015, 01:40

Rastagnon wrote: Would have a character set fulfillment route 1 set each $125 or so with stretch goals unlocking figures as you resold enough to stay profitable.
A calvary regiment option perhaps two Knights sets and a female set with horse sets to mount. ... Command conversion sprue as well... Had you made boxed Calvary sets you'd have included half as much in each.
Foot regiment 5 sets (previously listed sweet spot) with command sprue.
And that I think, is how you start a kickstarter campaign with stretch goals.


Well, I for one would not even consider pledging $125 for one messily set unless it was at least a 100 figure boxed set plus any stretch goals pledge level.
I think we can actually do it for $20-$30 per 20-30 figure set pledges if our main goal is just paying of the initial costs (The art, sculpting, machine building, and all that is what costs big bucks, but once that is all over the process of actually turning the raw materials into plastic sprues is rather cheap) and should since we want to encourage new gamers to buy the sets not give them sticker shock.

I think for our second KS (the one for sets) the first 5 sets should be the boyars (foot and cavalry sets), Vampire Hussars (foot and cavalry set), streltsy (both sides can use them). As to stretch goal beyond that it should be Cossack (maybe cavalry and infantry as one set, again both sides can use them), maybe baba yaga's hut.

Rastagnon wrote: Problem is having the modeling capacity to fulfill that many new sets in a timely manner, something I can't judge. Basically you leverage the customization to FLESH out an Arthurian army list. Foot Knights, mounted Knights, celts, scout/skirmishers, Guinevere, Merlin and Christian priests and monks... For enemies you have Vikings/Saxon invaders, maybe orcs from north of the wall painted Pictish blue... Maybe the native Americans/Zulus as the Picts sans firearms.. Or whatever monsters you feel like... Oh yeah the (Arthurian?) army led by Morgan le Faye and Mordred. I'd use them as characters and NPC's myself.


We actually already have a few factions that war gamers could get started with right away if the lists are made up: a Persians style empire (WGF has human minis in plastics for the moment), Greek style Ouzo (there are many plastic hoplite sets out there that can fill the human part at least and maybe use the WGF skellies for dragon teeth warroirs), Viking Mead (badger already has a human prototype list made up for testing for Mead and Vodka), Samurai Sake (WGF), the orc tribes of Temperance (WGF, among others, has orcs). Yes we need to give them cooler names but they work for now, (if we do stick the names I think we should call the Persian faction Geber). :lol:

However it might be wise to add a few from “off the map” mercenary lord army lists that we will not do minis for (sort of like Mantic’s kingdoms of man list), and King Arthur fantasy style list would be fairly easy to put together if you use dark age minis like eccentric minis and fireforge (for knights, men at arms, and archers) and/or WGF Saxons (men at arms, archers, maybe foot knights), shirtless Celts and Germanic tribesmen for Pictic scouts, and for gunners (if you are going to have them for this list) you should just take the Fireforge crossbow men and give them scratch built medieval handguns or have hand grenades (sanctified of course :twisted: ). For Christian monks, druids and mages one will have to use metals but all of those are command options really.

As to Morgan le Faye and Mordred, I see them more as generic army of evil types (skellies and orcs, with maybe a handful of mounted evil knights from old England and perhaps a dragon), and don’t really see a big need for them as characters (beyond a get into it list) in the setting we have cooked up since there is already going to be a small rogues gallery of villains (Kochie the Deathless, the troll king, a vampire emperor, some sort of Khan for the mixed bloods, at least one orc warlord, a mummified “god emperor”, maybe a Slavic dragon leading the Kobolds).
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby 1classybadger » 16 Sep 2015, 12:46

I should get back to writing that ruleset, thanks for reminding me. I think what would help a kickstarter would be a ruleset to go along with the minis, sort of as a selling feature, "yeah you can use these for other games, but we also have this game you can use them with."
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 29 Sep 2015, 19:24

Yeah, Think I will start writing story bits for it, over arch and then details (I am not going to be that fast on it so take your time). By the way I think I may have found a graphic artist for the book's illustrations.
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby 1classybadger » 29 Sep 2015, 22:21

huzzah
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 29 Sep 2015, 23:31

When we are ready for illustrations. I have his contact info and we know each other, he is still in college but everyone needs a first project and he should be improved over his high school stuff which wasn't bad.
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby 1classybadger » 29 Sep 2015, 23:56

well I still need to make sure the magic system works.
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Re: Additions to your fantasy line

Postby bvandewalker » 30 Sep 2015, 00:29

Well if you are that far ahead, we should really work on the over arch, I have been thinking about it for awhile.
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